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OmniTrader 2017 Upgrade Forums
OmniTrader 2018 General Discussion
Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Last Activity 10/19/2018 4:21 PM
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Michael1

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Subject : Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 6/30/2018 1:46 AM
Post #44896

Team,

In OT 2018 I tested what appears to be a good strategy and now I want to automate the trading by using a Trade Plan Block to replace the Orders Block.

In the Orders Bock there is an option in the "EXIT" tab to select........... "Reversing Signals"

In a Trade plan Block there is no such exit selection available

How do I then use the Trade Plan Block?.......Im stumped

Ideas anyone ??

I have read in an old 2006 post that the Trade plan block "exits" cannot access the vote Line " Oh no I hope this is not true"

Thanks
Mike


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Jim Dean

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 6/30/2018 5:29 AM
Post #44897 - In reply to #44896

Reversals can only be done with the Orders Block.
That’s always been the case.
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jawjahtek

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 6/30/2018 9:40 AM
Post #44899 - In reply to #44896

You can leave the Orders Block in place, and put a Trade Plan Block after the Orders Block. You do not have to replace the Orders Block, even though most people do. OT will allow both an Orders Block and a Trade Plan Block.
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Jim Dean

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 6/30/2018 9:48 AM
Post #44900 - In reply to #44899

Hi Ross

That’s a new one for me! Sounds interesting!
If the OB uses a reversal, does the TP follow thru that way somehow, over and over for multiple actual trades at the broker in opposing directions?

[Edited by Jim Dean on 6/30/2018 9:49 AM]

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Michael1

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 6/30/2018 2:06 PM
Post #44901 - In reply to #44896

Jim and Jayjahtek thank you for taking the time to review my request

Jim, in the December 2005 edition of the Omnitrader User Guide Which I have
there is an opion to select Reversing signals as an exit. This guide is still on the web. So It did exist (once). Ill try to attach the image its Chapter 10 page 226.

So, why wouldnt a Orders Block exit be mirrord in the trade plan if you wanted to absolutely verifiy idntical prformance ?. All I want to do is automate this strategy. Im sad

Best Regards to you both
Mike

So I think Im stumped? I'll try Jawjahtek's optopn of Orders then Trade plan but I'm not sure this is the same.



Attached file : Trade Plan snip form OT 2012 user guide.PNG (35KB - 16 downloads)

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Jim Dean

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 6/30/2018 2:27 PM
Post #44902 - In reply to #44901

Reversing signals is an exit method that ends a trade but does not reverse the position. There’s a special checkbox in the order Block to implement true reversal systems. That’s what I was talking about when I said the TP could not do true reversals.

I’ve had several discussions with N staff about this over the years and that’s always what I was told. But no one ever suggested Ross’ idea of putting a TP after an OB. It’s frankly sounds sort of goofy to me since both blocks are designed to manage the trade - but hey maybe it works! I don’t know.
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Michael1

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 6/30/2018 3:06 PM
Post #44903 - In reply to #44896

Jim,

Thanks

I just wanted the reversing sgnal as per the strategy to end the Trade so if there is no virtual (reversing signal) exit in the Trade plan block to do this I'll put the orders block in front of the Trade plan so The Trade plan is Dumb ie no virtual condition it just enters the Trade and sells the Trade.

the reason for the Trade Plan Block is %of equity trading and automation otherwise I'll have do it manually.

Its a pity Nirvana didnt unify "identical options and functionality" for both blocks then there is no difference!(they had this thought in 2005)

anyway, I'll try the workaround suggested by Jawjahtek but I agree it shouldnt be this way. Its goofy indeed

Regards
Mike





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Jim Dean

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 6/30/2018 3:32 PM
Post #44904 - In reply to #44903

Sorry I misunderstood your original question :-(

I’ll be interested to hear how the OB+TP method actually works out.

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Michael1

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 6/30/2018 5:38 PM
Post #44905 - In reply to #44896

team,

Im stuck

I tried the orders block in front of a Trade Plan Block

It enters the Trade but it just exits the next trading day it doesnt mirror the orders block for an exit which is what i want

This is how I configured the Trade Plan Block (see pic) just to mirror the OB

Nirvana why didnt you program the TP Block same as Orders Block? am I missing something here?

Mike

Attached file : Trade Plan dumb block.PNG (15KB - 20 downloads)

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Hafnium

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 7/1/2018 2:25 AM
Post #44906 - In reply to #44905

Auto Trading requires a Trade Plan - Yes. However, the Trade Plan in use does not have to be attached to the strategy. Suggest you try the following. I've never tested this - as trade plans are much more flexible than orders blocks in many ways.

1. Use your strategy with the orders block intact. No trade plan attached.

2. In the Auto Trade Settings (or Omnipilot), choose a generic trade plan to use. One with the proper entry, and perhaps a fixed loss stop only. If you don't choose a trade plan here (something other than Strategy), OT will likely use your OT default tradeplan. Remember, autotrading requires a trade plan - as it gets attached to the chart. It can come from the strategy, the autotrade setting, or from the OT default setting.

3. Also in the Auto Trade Settings - Select "Close Position on Exit Signal". When the orders block exits the trade, the automation engine (AutoTrade) should exit the trade. This feature was designed to keep the actual trade in sync with the vote line.

4. Let us know if it works for you.
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Michael1

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 7/1/2018 2:45 AM
Post #44907 - In reply to #44896

Hafnium,

thanks for the advice Im a bit of a newbie wrt Trade Plans and auto trading
so it may be a while before I can confim anything as a Trade Plan as part of a strategy is easy and tells you instanly whats going on

Im not sure but I get the essence of what you are saying and will attached the Auto Trade snip as per you advice for OT 2018.

Lets see what happens and I really appreciate the advice

I still state that Nirvana should mirror the orders block as the basis of the Trade Plan Block plus add whatever they like OmniScript etc..without all this clowing around or just a tickbox in the TP block use strategy exits (with the Orders Block) oh well

Regards
Mike
Attached file : Auto Trade snip.PNG (17KB - 12 downloads)

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Jim Dean

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 7/1/2018 5:40 AM
Post #44908 - In reply to #44907

Advice:

Orders Blocks are essentially legacy tools in N so don’t expect any growth or mods to them. Spend 100% of your time working with and on Trade Plans which (with the exception of Reversing signals and true position reversals) are far more versatile.

Also note that your comments and requests for adding reversing signals (or reversals) to TP are not new - probably those requests have been in place for at least six years. So, it’s just not gonna happen.

Reason:

Orders Blocks run essentially in conjunction with the rest of the Blocks of the Strategy. That is, the other Blocks (incl System) stay “connected” during the entire trade.

Trade Plans run independently of the rest of the Strategy. Once the Strat fires a Signal, it “hands off” execution to the TP, and disconnects permanently. That’s why Reversal signals (either to flip position or to end the trade) don’t work … by the time they would have fired, the System+Filter etc is no longer instantiated. The TP runs in its own little world.

It’s quite possible to use TP’s to end a trade due to a “reversing signal” - but it requires custom OLang (or SDK) code to do so - basically you recreate the system+filter logic that would have gen’d the reversal exit AS a stop. This requires skill with OLang coding, unless the System is very simple - and also requires that you know all the inner details of how the System works.

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jawjahtek

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 7/1/2018 8:55 AM
Post #44909 - In reply to #44900

I don't know all of the permutations that can occur with an Order Block inserted before a Trade Plan. And I'm not sure what Michael1 is trying to accomplish vs. what could be done with an OB before a TP. It may not work exactly as he expects, but we have all found things that work around OT limitations. The only suggestion that I have for Michael1 is to try an OB before a TP and be open minded about what he wants vs. what OT can do.
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jpb

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 7/1/2018 10:11 AM
Post #44911 - In reply to #44905

Michael1,

In looking at your "Trade Plan dumb block" image, you have configured your trade plan to close out your trade with the next analysis cycle. With each analysis cycle, the trade plan will be evaluated and issue the next action.

Your Step 1 is to open the trade, buying at market. As soon as that order is filled and the trade plan recognizes there is now a position open that it should manage, it will proceed to Step 2. You don't have a condition set on Step 2 so it will issue a market order to sell the position. I believe this is why you are seeing the trade open one day and close the next -- I'm assuming you run OT between market sessions.

To prevent the Trade Plan from closing the position you need to add a condition to the order in the second step -- perhaps a trailing profit stop or Eights Stop or maybe WaveTrader Pivot Stop (if you have the WaveTrader module). You may need to experiment a bit more to find what works for you and what provides a similar return to your original strategy.

A word of caution:
As you add a stop condition to your order and press save, you may see a red bar appear on the right and left of the TP block. This means that you have selected a stop that "optimized" the strategy instead of keeping it a Mechanical strategy. In fact, if you see the red bars in any of the blocks, it means it is an optimized strategy. Optimized strategies are not suitable for automatic trading -- they will issue orders in the past. Here's an example: I was really excited to find that adding the Next Pivot Point condition to my order produced nice returns. I ran tests in Lab Mode. I ignored the red bars and the missing "Mech" in the list of strategies. I traded it for a month live and was scratching my head as to why orders weren't firing as expected. Angela helped me realize that Next Pivot Point looked back through history to determine NPP -- which is only able to be determined from a historical view with perfect hindsight.

I'm not sure what logic is under the Reversing Signals found in the Orders Block, but I'd guess by the name that it would rely on the strategy to say "I'm in a long position but the upstream just said I should be short so let's close the position." As Jim mentioned, to create that logic would require some programming on your part (or hire Jim?) -- probably not an easy task. It may also not work exactly the same as the Orders Block because the Orders Block (as Jim pointed out) has knowledge and access to data upstream that isn't available outside the process.

I'll be interested to know if keeping the Orders Block and adding a TP block will work with AutoTrade or if AutoTrade will only pay attention to the Trade Plan block. It would be nice if they both fired exits -- then you just need to move everything else from the OB to the TP except for that one exit.
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Jim Dean

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Subject : RE: Reversing Signal Exits in Trade Plan
Posted : 7/1/2018 2:13 PM
Post #44913 - In reply to #44911

Glad you mentioned that about Reversing Stop - I think the stop that used to be called “next Pivot” is now called “Market Reversals” and yes - that is NOT a tradable stop - is for historical backtesting comparisons of differing system+filter combos. It uses “future knowledge” of upcoming pivots before they would actually be known at the HRE.
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